🐱 🐱 🐱 DO'S AND DON'TS FOR GRENADIER CLASS! 🐱 🐱 🐱

  • Tachi, Guns. are all fake shuris.


    Wiz, 400% cdmg to support razor wind + ice glyph(-def with out extra time)

    Time to fox pounce!


    Please don't ever compare two of the most fun and real classes that take some thought and play in a game where there is already so little needed to the classes that play themselves (Shuriken, Lancer, and Holy Sword; I'll just barely give Ravager a pass these days which should let you know what I think about you calling the Ravager weak too).


    Tachi is many times better than Shuriken in both skills of the class, play of the class, and even theme (Tachi did the ninja theme thingy first AND better; the Shuriken only has it's brokeness ruining any potential unique and fun factor, much like the Ravager of old which had a kit with potential made boring by overwhelming strength making the game even more overly easy than it already is).


    As for Wizard, no. That actually makes no sense. I know the theme these days is to just throw Shuriken subclass on everything and effectively make yourself a weaker Shuriken that uses you "other" class skills between your tornados, but it still makes no sense to make this a special mention because a Shuriken main is going to do a lot more damage than a Wizard just because it has a 400% crit damage cap (which is also a strain on the class to begin with) so your point doesn't even make sense anyway. A Shuriken is a stronger Shuriken than a Wizard with it as a subclass.



    Chimera server - Catalyst guild - Retired

    Sylver_Aura - Level 95 Wizard/Bard (since 2014) | Princess_Garnet - Level 86 Tachi (since 2015)

  • I am saying the burst of each classes.


    It hurts

    Or go make more dmg without lancer. Truth always hurts


    comfyythe only comparable classes are gunslinger and shuriken, none of the other classes are the same just because they use the same element

    Not only same element, also the dmg. And I am saying how does other class make burst. Can guns make more dmg without razor wind in 4s?

  • I am saying the burst of each classes.

    Your comparisons still make little sense to me, unless I am missing something o.o? It honestly looks like you just compared the main element of many classes to another class with the same element that is more simpler and broken.


    Tachi has almost nothing in common with Shuriken besides preferred weapon element. Wizard having a 400% crit damage cap doesn't make it a good Shuriken by throwing it on as a sub-class because a Shuriken main is a better Shuriken. Ravager isn't weak. I can go on; a lot of your mentions are just wrong.



    Chimera server - Catalyst guild - Retired

    Sylver_Aura - Level 95 Wizard/Bard (since 2014) | Princess_Garnet - Level 86 Tachi (since 2015)

  • Your comparisons still make little sense to me, unless I am missing something o.o? It honestly looks like you just compared the main element of many classes to another class with the same element that is more simpler and broken.


    Tachi has almost nothing in common with Shuriken besides preferred weapon element. Wizard having a 400% crit damage cap doesn't make it a good Shuriken by throwing it on as a sub-class because a Shuriken main is a better Shuriken. Ravager isn't weak. I can go on; a lot of your mentions are just wrong.

    Just go to check how much % of dmg is made by razor wind. I have lv95 wiz. if talking about burst. 30+45 storm dmg is even better than 30+45 ice.

    Just like Alibaba, 20%+ shares is beyond to Softbank(the largest shareholder), and Jack ma still say alibaba is Chinese business.

    See how many dmg is made by razor wind.


    Wizard having a 400% crit damage cap doesn't make it a good Shuriken by throwing it on as a sub-class because a Shuriken main is a better Shuriken.

    This situation not only happen in those classes. Tbh, same to Hs. Razor wind is occupy 50%+ as well.

    This IS as unbalancing game. Especially after shuri came. I don't like it, but I have to admit it. If do burst, more than 50% of dmg come from razor wind, and you tell me, isn't it a fake shuri?

  • CatSayMeow Regardless of what's going on, I would like to advice you to post what you wanna say in just one post because honestly, this is getting too spammed with every time you reply to someone, you use a different post instead. Multi quoting in one post exists and please do utilize and maximize forum formatting.

    Or go make more dmg without lancer. Truth always hurts

    What's a meme


    Or actually, I already have since I'm a sorc :AK19:

  • i kinda feel like this 50%+ dmg from razor wind "alone" is more a main shuri thing because of envoys/wep spec. my wiz only has +21 and i have actually used a +30 wiz of a friend(aze hes a guildmate of ours) so i know how much dmg +30weps on wiz deals.


    all the tests ive done so far (storm vs ice mount using 24dmg eido coz i dont have 45storm eido yet) always had the same result, ice storm+icy curse beats razor wind by a good amount considering shuri sub razor wind has a 9second cd for the 2nd cast and a 27sec cd for the subsequent casts. rarely did razor wind contribute 50% of my dmg.


    if ever your razor wind deals more than 50% of the boss dmg in 1 cast then the boss is so squishy that it wouldnt matter and you can just burst it with ice skills with little effort (razor wind has a 5sec duration iirc, you can cast 3 ice storms and 2 icy curse in that time. do note that ice storm DoT actually stacks and they get buffed by icy curse once you are 60+ in left path). if you would need a 2nd cast of razor wind, by that time ice storm plus all the autos you did in that time frame has already outdamaged razor wind by a good amount, by the 3rd cast(if you ever get to this point) ice has far surpassed storm by then.


    no idea about other classes tho as i have given up trying to level them above 75 but im guessing theyre the same more or less.

  • Mine is all+30. I have all elemtal dmg eido and mount, so I think my test is fair enough. And I did calculation. Numbers wont lie.

    if go ice skill dmg

    Ice, wind,Ice.

    or wind, ice, iceball. No matter which one, 3 skills.


    Then I changed to wind skill dmg.

    Wind, Ice. done.

    from 3s to 2s, dps+50%


    I made sure that every test has a ice+storm glyph.

    The only one unfairness is my shuri is 130% and my staff is 128%

    But, indeed, wiz has a good dmg by main weapon, especially for long time combat. Again, if say BURST ( at most 4s) , razor wind occupy too much.

    If you want a higher dps, you have to find a way to do burst.

    Bow is similar as wiz, they all have a good dps for long time combat. But, lancer's dark, Charge dimension, 3s gone. In this 3s, which skill make more dmg?


    Don't say I have +30. Dungeons are easy enough for +20. After 70 sniper came, the game is changed. No tanker, No doctor, No supporter, Only dps.

    I just lazy to build one more +20 to prove it.

  • I'm not even talking about Storm damage or Ice damage on a Wizard with Shuriken as a subclass. I'm talking about Wizard with Shuriken as a subclass against Shuriken as a main, whereas the latter is going to do more damage, making your point about Wizard having 400% crit damage as it's feature for making a better Shuriken wrong (because if you want a better Shuriken, it's called... playing a Shuriken). If Shuriken as a subclass on a Wizard comprises over 50% of the Wizard's damage (and I neither know nor care how much it does as this is an irrelevant point), then no, I wouldn't say that makes a Wizard a fake anything. I'd say that makes the Shuriken a joke of a class.

    I'm not sure if or why you're trying to convince me the game is unbalanced. I've been playing since 2014, so I know that this is an unbalanced game. It been the case since loooong before Shuriken came too, and while Sniper changed the game, it didn't make tanks or healers obsolete because they weren't really needed before then either.



    Chimera server - Catalyst guild - Retired

    Sylver_Aura - Level 95 Wizard/Bard (since 2014) | Princess_Garnet - Level 86 Tachi (since 2015)

  • Let's start

    You cannot do -def just for -def. -def is for higher dps. And most of dungeon that we go now, is -60% or -70%dmg reduction.

    I’m aware of the damage dealt reduction of bosses. The reason why new instances have less damage reduction nowadays is because they already reduce player’s overall stats as a debuff.

    Because I am from China, I have many friends who play in HK or TW server. In theirs' test, for SN, CC. +20 is able to nuke a elemental boss with my combo.

    There is too much stuff to say about this


    1- (and most important) You cant compare the metagame of different servers.

    The difference in contents, class reworks and other general gameplay mechanics between NA/EU servers and TW server is pretty big to make a fair comparison.


    2- The few main cannon players out there already made a flame build for the fiery-icy grenade chain combo, the current meta, boosted using the +50% skill damage from crystal. Additionaly, golden 95 weapon boosts that meta even more. If it is possible to dps by that way, no wonder why would you want to force a sub weapon build gamestyle.


    Laser path is a crowd control-type weapon mastery. It decreases your cannon capabilities against bosses by many reasons. You also lose Heavy destroyer aggro control, which helps you to handle certain bosses (ideal when you are low level and/or mid geared). If you pick laser path your cannon dps is going to drop down, forcing you to use another damage source like your sub to inflict dps.

    The only way to make this weapon mastery path effective is, indeed, relying on your sub and being not cannon (charged laser + sub spamming all the way)


    3- It is already easy, tho, to solo SN and CC. those are really easy dungeons with +20 using the current cannon meta and the current NA server content. No need to rebuild your cannon based on your sub. And I don’t neither suggest trying that gameplay style for new cannon players.


    4- I want to believe that your friends were making a test only. Those are really easy instances. A well played cannon (with an end game player and maxed stats) can take down almost every boss relatively fast using flame build. Even faster using 95 weap + deflonia trophy (which i lack). If they really need to force a sub weapon build with their current TWAK content to take down bosses, then they are doing something wrong or they are just farming alt characters with their main's build.


    if you are main shuriken or main holysword trying cannon,yes, you can go that way (building a storm / lighting skill damage grenadier for sub weapon spamming, ) But then your are missing the whole experience of the class (micro-economy, heavy destroyer aggro, massive auto attacks, positioning, cannon skill rotations)


    5- You are not going to spent a charge into divine thunderstrike when sub holy, (which sounds like a 95 main holysword trying cannon for the first time). The divine explosion is limited as sub, and thunderstrike isn't worth it unless you can deal a great amount of dmg with that single hit (which requires a hs lighting build instead of a flame cannon one)

    Dry bones and Smite edge repent for 10% dmg dealt/%dmg received are still the most reliable choices for normal and starter cannons with flame build.


    The only reason to aim for lighting cannon is if you already have a main holysword with lighting build. Lighting cannon itself is not powerful

    For Ow toa & sfl, u just cannot do -def, theirs def is 5k+, and 2nd and 3rd boss have a buff: def+100%, def+150%

    I’m also aware of how every boss works, Bosses from ToA and SFL are exceptions. You can still inflict %dmg recieved status using smite edge mastery. Dry bones isn't the only thing HS can offer as sub.


    When u can -def, the boss is soo weak that u don't have to.

    When you run as cannon being a newbie player who starts AK every boss monster is going to take more work and effort than usual. Most shurikens and hs players don’t understand this, and neither old school ravager players (i experienced this myself being main cannon since mid 2015 and going royal panel all the way as grenadier) They find hard to get how low tier classes handles dps

    Everything counts to maximize your damage output, and even more when you are still working on your gears. A weak boss for a shuriken or a holysword is a tough one for a cannon. That’s why it’s a rejected class in most servers.


    Sadly, new cannon players are going to read this in a "DO'S AND DON'S for greandier" post

    I don't think jump cast is a good idea for grenadier, and I think go lightning will be better

    When u can -def, the boss is soo weak that u don't have to

    Because I am from China, I have many friends who play in HK or TW server


    and they are going to suck as hell


    Throwing sub weapon skills like crazy and not jumpcasting. believing that they are playing with the same contents as TW server has and do not dealing –def reduction to bosses because you find them too weak.


    comparing the overall performance of an x class with cannon is the reason why they end up being storage characters to make space for a shuriken/hs/lancer instead.

    Unbalance between classes is something that everyone must catch.


    And for now, the Pen is the key variable of dmg

    Agree. But

    1- I still don’t get what is the relationship between this on a "DO's and DONT's" topic for cannon.. You get pen with gears and enchantments, and with the last patch using consumable items too. Builds and skill rotations cannot increase your pen (again, in NA/EU servers, i dont know if that's possible in TW server)

    2- A full pen build is expensive to get, as well as +30 fortification equipment. Not for everyone.


    And, I remember the lightning combo has a -cd mastery. Check if I'm right.

    It has.


    Again, dps does not depend on how many def have u broke. It depends on u need how many seconds to kill the boss.

    This is true. Overall dps isn’t all about defense reduction. LOL.

    My reply was about which sub holysword skill deserves to be charged, when and why. And how to properly cannon for starter players (which is the main topic of this post)


    Since dungeons are easy, every classes have to find a way to do burst.

    Grenadier (laser). to support sub skills to make burst.

    Nothing to say about that. Everyone has the right to play and experience the game as they wish. Maths and meta are just numbers, you dont need to rely on those two things to have fun. Going cannon that way is perfectly fine if you are satisfied with it.


    As a grenadier player what i can say is:

    if you picked cannon because you want to experience the class, going for sub weapon burst damage build isn't the answer. That's not a grenadier trying to find a way to do burst, that's a x sub class trying to fit on the grenadier to make their work, using cannon as a zeal food proc. Not the proper way of playing and experiencing a class.


    in my opinion:

    Any class should be played trying to maximize its main weapon capabilities, not vice versa. (it makes sense for me)

    it you want to pick x class to maximize and build your character around your sub weapon, picking your sub weapon as main instead would be a wiser choice.

  • I wouldn't say that makes a Wizard a fake anything. I'd say that makes the Shuriken a joke of a class.

    Like u made a company, 51% of shares are belong to another person. Do you think the company is urs now?

    I realize that u guy dont like the name of fake xx. I am sorry about that. It is a popular joke in Chinese server, and I even have a bard, which id is FakeShuri. Even the guide makers are doing that. Like why chose go storm? cuz razor wind.

  • didnt i just say this:

    if ever your razor wind deals more than 50% of the boss dmg in 1 cast then the boss is so squishy that it wouldnt matter and you can just burst it with ice skills with little effort.

    stuff that you can kill in 3secs or less is irrelevant. at that point you can just use either ice or storm and burst something with whatever ice/storm rotation and be okay with half a second to 1 second more time spent on the boss, most people wont care about that 1sec more. calculations can also be skewed at this point by zeals (one test proccing all the zeals on ice skills but none on storm and vice versa) but nevermind this one for now as again, something you can kill in 3secs or less is irrelevant.


    and also :

    my wiz only has +21 and i have actually used a +30 wiz of a friend(aze hes a guildmate of ours) so i know how much dmg +30weps on wiz deals.

    i felt like you only read the "my wiz has +21" part and your reply to it implies "im +30 my tests are more fair than yours coz you arent geared enough". repeating myself again: i already used a +30 wiz before (he has both +30 staff/shuri and full +30 acces and +21-25 armors) and full +30 compared to +30weap/acce is only some dmg% and cdmg% (cdmg part doesnt matter since shuri sub just gets wiz to cap easier) more, so only the eido/mount/emblem skill dmg are taken into account. the tests i did just to compare elements are as fair and relevant as yours.

    Don't say I have +30. Dungeons are easy enough for +20. After 70 sniper came, the game is changed. No tanker, No doctor, No supporter, Only dps.

    I just lazy to build one more +20 to prove it.

    oh yes +20 is enough for dungeons, but running something like OW SFL/ToA Hell mode by yourself as a +20 wiz/shuri and hoping to burst any of the bosses in 2 or 3 secs is like a dream, ice becomes ALOT better compared to storm in that scenario.

    Wiz/Shuri Sometimes Wiz/Bard Phoenix


    Solo Stuff

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Zessen ().

  • First, thx about this reply.


    1. AKUS ≈ AKTW -1 year. Same dungeon, same class, same skills and same function. I don't think it is unfair.

    2. I am not forcing people to change. But they should know more options. Eg. I know right mastery of shuri make more dmg, but I always use the left one, because left is more easy and convenient.

    3. You can solo ≠ you have more dmg. I just need an evidence that fire+ice make more dmg than lightning. I have seen lightning players, do Laser+Lightning to nuke. Pretty fast, and pretty amazing.

    4. So, do u mean fire one can nuke in shorter time than lightning?

    5. The benefit of -def in 85 dungeons is not quite high, cuz they have high stat of def. So have u measure: is that still worth to spend time on -def? I have calculated and tested. It depends. Some classes like wiz, make -def without extra time is still getting benefit from -def. But like Hs, if you charge drybones, u have to wait 5.5s for next charge. And it also depends on the 2 trophies and acc. I was using vicki+2-def trophies, so my hs can enjoy the -def. My point is : don't tell me what the debuffs or the buffs are, I know them pretty well. Tell me is that can make u kill boss quicker. That will be make sense. And, evidence plz. Videos or math proving, i like both of them.

    For current version, -def, or dmg dealt is able to affect your dmg. Howerver, not as much as previously . Pen is much more important than them. Ow toa has 90% reinforcement, but u at most have 39% pen now. I think u understand what is that mean. Trash pen card is not expensive, but it is useful.

    I totally understand it. But you might haven't played katar. In the past, if a katar want to be better: calculating for optimizing the skil rotation (really hard to do it for katar, cuz it soo complex), practice the rotation,(cuz skill has different gcd+ the skill of jump cast 2 skills). But how is the katar now? No matter how you good at those skill now, it worse than Frantic Lotus+Razor wind. After that, primary skills? Forget it. If using primary skill is not quite worse than using sub, that is acceptable. But if using sub IS the way to do much more dmg...Forget the belief.


    I do like using primary skill as much as I can. That is the reason why I make the video of hs without using razor wind. So how about this, show me a fire grenadier solo owtoa or sfl under 6s for each boss. If so, I agree with that it is worth to build a fire one.


    The second page of my character are 3* lv95. The last 2 is Katar and Grenadier, I am going to play it , so I care about the result.

  • it is not quite easy to touch 400%... unless scarify some other things. And I want to remind that, critdmg from Envoy, is only buffed primary skills, make sure that ur sub skill also have 400% cdmg.

    It doest have to be in solo situation. In group, less than 3s is common.

    And I am not going to say wiz should go storm. I am just saying the razor wind occupy a lot. And yes, ice do helps a lot, that is also the reason that why I didnt call wiz a fake shuri. I memorize that after 4th second, ice do more than storm. I calculated 1 year ago, not quite sure now.

  • it is not quite easy to touch 400%... unless scarify some other things. And I want to remind that, critdmg from Envoy, is only buffed primary skills, make sure that ur sub skill also have 400% cdmg.

    It doest have to be in solo situation. In group, less than 3s is common.

    And I am not going to say wiz should go storm. I am just saying the razor wind occupy a lot. And yes, ice do helps a lot, that is also the reason that why I didnt call wiz a fake shuri. I memorize that after 4th second, ice do more than storm. I calculated 1 year ago, not quite sure now.

    yeah i actually overcap my cdmg abit just to get shuri sub to 400%, this isnt 100% necessary tho (i just like having it at cap).

    5iEkY7Q.jpg

    i got 172 base cdmg on my wiz with all items unequipped (left path, 20pts in cdmg, and other sources of cdmg like middle envoy and housing)


    Z7mEENR.jpg
    with wiz buff(i rarely use shuri buff unless i really need the boost in crit/spd) im at 269 base + 135 bosscdmg, thats 404 cdmg total, im not using any cdmg on wep cards and im on full sniper+blinding. if i switch to arcane/pw or 90 ones ill lose 10cdmg, but keep in mind im still on sniper so switching to full holy spirit set will give me extra 15%boss cdmg, and switching to 90weps will give me another 10% and another 6% if i ever get shuri to +30 totaling 425cdmg so im still capped by that time and i can stop using wiz buff until the changes to it comes around (10%more cdmg cap yay!).


    still not easy to get 400 tho as you need 6/2 stones and those dont come cheap specially for newer players.


    in a group yes 3secs is common, but the same thing still applies where you can use either element and kill stuff at the same speed +/- 1 second. most people wouldnt really notice the difference there.


    and you did say here :

    if talking about burst. 30+45 storm dmg is even better than 30+45 ice.

    thats actually you saying wiz should go storm dmg since its better than ice for bursting. i still dont think this is true coz most of the dmg a wiz does is from iceskills+autos, not razor wind itself. razor wind is just icing on the cake.

  • Okie. This thread is seriously derailed from Gren to Wiz (???) Feel free to open another thread in the Wizard section to further discuss about it and tag everyone involved (since the forum has a tag feature anyways) to notify them.


    I'm locking this thread meanwhile until the heat calms down.