Healer Wizard/Sorcerer ?

  • not really recommended to do, wiz and sorc HoTs are so small and not enough to rely on in actual combat. noc core just heals you up way better than those small heals. bard sub meanwhile is okay for "pinch healing" in case youre really low and need to top up asap.

    it couldve worked way back when AK started due to people not having high amounts of hp due to no stars on armors and no forts on acce, but then again noc core wasnt nerfed that time and is way better. nowadays with all the easy access to LP for forts and DP to get LW you could gear up in a decent amount of time and get 150k or more hp and noc will heal you up faster than rejuprayer/mantra can. you mostly use it for the buffs/cleanse it provides, the extra heals is just a plus.

  • Wizard/Sorcerer Healer

    So, I had this idea in my mind for so long and I got to create one (currently lvl 60... a bit low). The players I know playing Sorcerer or Wizard never use their heals unless they are in danger, they keep focusing damage (Which yes, is what they do so its normal) I couldnt find anyone who tried a Healer Wiz/Sorc on the net either, so i wanted to share this. This is basically a Wiz/Sorc combo that focuses on healing instead of damage dealing. I focus on SPD, DEF primarily and CRIT, HP secondary. Depending on my experience, having the main class as Wizard is the best choice even if Sorcerer has one more +%3 healing Envoy's Path buff. This is because Cooldowns of Wizard's healing is already high, and it being a secondary class makes it too much to be a viable healing skill(around 1 minute which is so high for a main healer). Having Wizard as a main helps a lot. With %50 SPD you have your R.Prayer on 15 second cooldown, which means you can cast it every 3 seconds it worns off (it has 12 second duration). R.Mantra doesnt need to get cooldown since it has already low cooldown and can be casted to have a infinite healing buff. Also it doesnt stack so, its pointless to have it on 3 second cooldown where you can do much more healing when your main is Wizard. They both get a healing skill combo, which is Healing Mantra and it has 1 min cooldown so it doesnt really cover up the loss of R.Prayer when your main is Sorcerer. So, Wizard as the main is the best choice. I compared it to Bard (ofc bard can heal much more and maybe is better, by comparing I dont mean to 'Wiz/Sorc is better healer', I mean to 'Oh, Wiz/Sorc can be an alternative to bard!') So yeah.

    Wizard/Sorcerer and Bard

    I'm not involving masteries here, so know that when Im talking about abilities. Wizard has 1 healing ability, Sorcerer has 1 too. Bard has 4 healing ability. Wizard and Sorcerer both get 3 (1Wiz 1Sorc 1Combo), Bard with any combo that has healing get 5(correct me if im wrong, it might be 6). So they have a decent amount of abilities. This is where it gets a little bit complicated. Bard has only 1 group healing and it takes time to cast. Wiz/Sorc has 2, one is instant, healing over time and removes a random debuff the other one takes a little bit casting, which is less than the bards. So we might be able to say, "Wiz/Sorc is a better group healer than Bard". Yes the Bards group heal has no cooldown, but Wiz/Sorcs HoT also has infinite duration (if you are a healer Wiz/Sorc then you focus on heals which makes R.Mantras duration infinite due to lower cooldown than duration). Also each time you cast an healing ability, you remove a random debuff. If you think of these Wiz/Sorc healer really can be a viable healer as the Bard is. Bards single target heals are strong, but not group healing. Wiz/Sorc is weak at single target, but somehow is a good group-healer. I played in a few parties but they are not really reliable sources of data. I kept the team alive fairly well and the cooldown gap gave me a chance to attack, supporting the battlefield. Healer Wiz/Sorc seems to be a good healer, thats why I decided to create one. I can heal the group and also giving someone extra-heals (which usually is the tank, I use my R.Prayer on the target which gets the damage usually), removing debuffs and also supporting the battle a bit by freezing, stunning or sleeping enemies. I would really like to make a guide on it when I get on higher levels and actually have reliable data sources. Thanks for reading :)

    Chief said this ain't it. I don't even know where to begin with how many problems there are here...

    1. No one plays healer wizard because wizard isn't a healing class. Wizard and sorc both have incredibly low healing numbers and the cool downs just make it infinitely more inferior to just playing even bard sub.

    2. AK doesn't need supports in general, sure play bard or w/e but don't turn a perfectly good DPS class into a really, really, really bad support that will accomplish close to nothing.

    3. Sorc sub is god awful, it literally provides nothing, and it's by far the worst S1 weapon. Sorc without envoy literally does nothing, it can't debuff properly, it can't actually spam mantra, so it's losing everything that makes main sorc good.

    I'd recommend not ever making a guide on this build because the replies will be exactly like the ones to this thread.

    Daybreak - 95 - Gunslinger

    SoonTM - 90 - Shuriken

    ChubbyBird - 90 - Sorc

    Pachimari - 90 - Lancer

    Snow Vice

    Hydra Phoenix

  • Difference between bard and sorcerer or wizard is that Bardos have burst heals with good base numbers and big % scaling ratios.

    Flat HoT doesn't help at all sustaining damage during a fight. When you literally take 30-50k nukes in the face from mobs every second, and even more from bosses, 3-4k HP regen is barely noticeable (even bard's ballad is having hard time keeping you alive when you take a lot of damage and it's a 15k HoT)

    Healers and support classes in general are not needed at all in this game, for the time being at least, pvp is the only exception. You only slow yourself down from any gear progress with slow clears, limited dungeons you can actually clear etc. Or you pretty much have to craft 2 different gears for pve, support and dps meaning double the expenses on a class that already struggles a lot when it comes to making gold from dungeons.

    ^ [ and this comes from an ex-bard main]

    So yeah, let your dreams be dreams sadly, don't theory craft, follow the mainstream and you'll be goochie.

  • 1. yes theyre used for those reasons mostly

    2. still not enough to rely on in actual fights, plus playing out of meta builds in a game like AK will just slow you and your pt down. not saying you cant do it, just saying you shouldnt if you wanna optimize stuff and not be a deadweight most of the time.

    3. wiz reju is 3.6cd at spdcap and 60path but its still mostly used for cleanse and buffs. the dmg reduction works on allies. also spd cap doesnt double healing, it just reduces the tick time from 1sec(0 spd) to 0.8sec(50spd) basically it adds 3 ticks to a 12sec duration reju, thats far from double, also its a waste getting heal% to 150 with all the stats you're gonna give up getting it.

    4. still not worth doing a heal focused wiz with those reasons. going sorc/wiz or wiz/sorc and healing with those dots is not enough to actually make it viable. just an example my reju prayer heals 41,505hp IN 12 SECS (2767hp/tick,15ticks over 12secs) , its just not enough to heal me up(i got 270k hp with decent 80+20gears-not even endgame +30). bard sub wouldve healed me alot better(my healing harmony can heal me up to max even with just 103% healing and it doesnt even take 12secs) nocturnal core wouldve also healed me alot faster than that 41k hp in 12secs. also healing ultimates does basically nothing and is too far out of the way for the usual wiz envoy.

  • 3. no it reduces it to 0.8 not 0.5 wrong info, also crit doesnt affect heal over time wrong info again.

    4. it doesnt work because unlike bards main heals, crit/cdmg does not affect HoTs of sorc and wiz. only heal% does and its not optimal to build heal% on a wiz or a sorc mainly because u are trading some sort of dps stat for it, whether it be a dps trophy(something like delfonia or guzigla) for heal% trophy(like keres) or spec pts(ur gonna move pts that are supposed to be in a dps stat) or even ss(trading dmg% or dmgto ele or something else like crit%or cdmg just to get heal%) its just not worth the exchange.

    sacrificing pts for it isnt actually needed. healing harmony already heals so much with base 100% heal and more than 300% cdmg, not worth moving pts on spec and envoy to get more heal. also what kind of wizard envoy has heal%, its so far out of the optimal wiz/bard or even wiz/sorc envoy.
    Common wiz/bard with 1 ult and meteor cd:
    see where the heal is? i dont know what u plan on removing just to get to a small 3% heal tile. its just not worth it.

    reju is still mainly used for cleansing and the additional buffs it gives, not for the heal itself. its used that way. the heals are just a nice add on and isnt enough to be the main source of healing for someone whos on the receiving end of boss attacks. try healing yourself up on an endgame dungeon with just reju and without using other forms of healing, you will see it wont be enough when a boss can hit you for 100k or more and when their uncleansable dots do 10k+.

    a pure dps wiz/bard will still heal better than a pure heal wiz/sorc who just relies on rejuprayer/mantra. your idea of a HoT healer simply does not work in the meta AK is in and also simply because almost everything hits like a truck. there is just no way to heal your tank in somewhere relevant like in vaultpt where he is the one taking the cage and you are tasked with healing with just those small HoTs.

    Wiz/Shuri Sometimes Wiz/Bard Phoenix

    Solo Stuff

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Zessen ().

  • 3. no its not the same. since you said you are a bard main, you shouldve tried and see if ballad actually crits(it doesnt)

    4. healing mantra is more out of the way, how can you sacrifice something you arent even getting in the first place? just getting to the heal tile needs 4 envoy tiles, all of them defensive tiles like hp and def which wizards dont really need, getting to healing mantra requires another def tile. theres just no envoy you can do to get those and still get the mandatory gray tiles on the other side of the envoy.

    yes healing with a bard is better, healing without it is another thing entirely. reju prayer and reju mantra just doesnt cut it for endgame healing needs. what you dont get is that heal over times dont get increased by any damage stat. the only thing that actually increases it is heal%. spd increases it indirectly by making it tick abit faster (not twice as fast mind you, just 0.2 secs faster). healing as a bard sub meanwhile isnt just focused on ballad, you get access to bards other heal skills which actually gets increased by your harps dmg stat and your crit/cdmg.

    HoTs on wiz and sorc are abit low, even more so when compared to bard because we dont really build heal% like support bards. full heal% bards got like 200+ heal% along with ballad being able to be stacked 3x. as a dps we dont really get that high heal% unless we sacrifice dps stats for it(which is not advisable at all) nor can we stack rejuprayer x3 or reju mantrax3 (they do stack with each other). its just not enough in relevant dungeons.

    wizards can still support through other means, mainly cleansing, CC(stun and immobilize), and providing the best def shred in game(ice etch). supporting isnt just centered on healing.

    Wiz/Shuri Sometimes Wiz/Bard Phoenix

    Solo Stuff

    The post was edited 1 time, last by Zessen ().

  • but thats the thing, you wanna build dps and heal at the same time while building like a support bard? not gonna happen on a wiz/sorc, it just isnt cut out for it. sure u can try it out all you want but im still telling you(and others that might be influenced, hopefully none) that its not worth it, might as well play bard or go bardsub. also healing mantra is just too far out of the usual envoys to even get, youre just gonna end up wasting envoy pts for a heal on a 30sec cd. it doesnt look promising at all. what are you gonna do when you need to clutch heal 2 times in a row? look at mantra and pray that the cd suddenly resets? im not even sure it heals as much as you make it sound like. keep in mind dungeon bosses arent gonna wait for your HoTs to heal you up to full after a 100k or more attack, theyre gonna keep hitting you. goodluck trying to heal that up with just rejuprayer/mantras 2k-ish HoTs(4k with 200heal%) when even a bards Ballad might have a hard time.

    also you dont really get it, you dont support better just by having 200% heal on a wiz/sorc, you actually support your party less because as a Wiz, your focus should be taking down whatever mob/boss your party is fighting while providing defshred, CC-ing mobs, and cleansing along the way. taking the mobs/boss down faster means it has less time to actually hit the tank or whoever has aggro, that means less damage done to them which can also mean less chance for a wipe. killing something slower in exchange for just double the HoT thats already low in the first place is just plain stupid. thats just how this game is, its a DPS meta all the way even in the current hardest content Vaultpt where the only difference is you need slightly tankier members for certain mechanics. heck even full dps party can clear it if they know what to do. and in vaultpt your HoTs wont save whoever is in the cage. thats where bardsub or main comes in.

    also when it comes to supporting yourself with heals, nocturnal does the job ALOT better than rejuprayer/mantra. it also scales with your dmg, the more you do, the higher noc cores heal you. and about the heal only in mastery and not losing much dmg? well what are you gonna give up? mspd?(more mspd equals faster clears for the average party) cdmg?(wiz got stupid high cdmg cap) crit?(slvl needs this just coz of the new critcap and overcapping it gives cap cdmg) spd?(u might need some pts on it come slvl specially for low eidowish people) only eledmg is left, sure maybe u can throw some of it into heal% but thats not really worth it. the increase its gonna give your HoTs is so small. gears are the same thing because exchanging say a DPS trophy(guzigla+delfonia is the usual budget trophies for a 95) for a ruth(15%heal) or keres(20heal) trophy isnt worth it. same as switching out your dps top to wear divineset(18heal). you lose too much. SS is different tho as you can get 4%heal and 4%dmg on the same one, but its still a tradeoff coz you couldve gotten crit%/cdmg/eledmg instead of heal%. these tradeoffs are what you dont get, none of them are worth sacrificing just to get heal% on a Wiz.

    totally not worth it. theres just no way a heal focus wiz/sorc will actually be as needed as a healer in endgame pve. you already deal less dmg than a wiz/bard by going sorc sub and you cant even heal as good as them. the only thing you got going for you is 2 cleanses but reju prayer already does the job fine by itself.

    this really sums it up with how you want to play the class:

    don't turn a perfectly good DPS class into a really, really, really bad support that will accomplish close to nothing.

  • honestly you do seem like a newbie in mmos simply because you dont test out things first like crit affecting HoTs and what spd does for it. you just say "oh i heard it does this so it must be true".

    also, i have played wiz with all sorts of subs, ive been a wiz main since OBT. ive tried all sorts of things from wiz/gren to wiz/necro. heck i was even wiz/guard for fun a little while, roaring for my party mates so they all get the loot. i was a wiz/sorc way back when people didnt have above 100k+ hp and people still needed gs as sub to cap spd, this was the point in time where smaller HoTs actually mattered. but then again, this was the time in AK where it was "get1shot by the boss or live with a sliver of HP and heal up TO FULL asap before the next boss attack hits". this part mostly hasnt changed for average geared people like me. in case youre gonna say im not average geared im still wearing full level 80 Lordswrath +20, theres already lvl90, s1, and s5 gears available and +30 is also there. for better geared people with 500k or more hp, those 3 rejus wont cut it. HoTs of those isnt enough for that. i tried those things you keep saying i havent tried. ive experimented with wizard way too much on things i have access to, and let me tell you again. your idea of a wiz/sorc is not worth it. it doesnt have potential and is mostly a for-fun-and-not-gonna-take-endgame-seriously build.

    oh guess what, i do play wiz/bard sometimes as a support but with full dps gears. healing in vaultpt stage 3 is sometimes required of me. but you know what, my heal still full heals a 500k hp person with healing harmony if it crits. thats something all three rejus cant do.

    also that 30sec cd im talking about is with cap spd. i guess you dont know wizard ulties have 60sec base cd. im not 100% but i think all envoy combos are like that unless you use masteries(which youre gonna exchange with either deepblue or bestdefense, another tradeoff go figure).

    still not gonna stop you from making it when you already said it yourself that "Wizard isnt fit for healing", but you know, someone else might think "oh this might be a great idea" when its not. its a forum after all and maybe a newbie comes in and sees this and tries it out, then gets disappointed when they see a bard sub healing much more than they did.

    edit: coz u mentioned my stats without armors


    mount is iceskilldmg. yeah maybe its horrible(to me its okay) there are other people with higher base stats than me simply because they are s5, got more eidos, more card forts, and more achievements.


    Edit :

    -To add your comment on Nocturnal doing way better, so? Is there something, a barrier, against using them both? Okay, Nocturnal is really good, so use them both. You dont have to stop using your regenerative abilities just because nocturnal is better.

    simply because nocturnal scales with dmg. it heals you up the stronger you are. yeah it doesnt stop you from using both but nocturnal heals you more than reju ever will. relying on reju first and noc later is actually a bad choice simply because it wont heal you up that fast when you need it most. only time you actually use reju to heal is when theres no mobs to hit or you're kiting something that should not be hit (fake panthers for one thing).

    oh also sorc reju void skill isnt reliable, as a wiz u wont really be spamming sorc skills to fill up your void bar, only normal reju mantra so thats gonna be slow, then its gated by rng, u might not get mantra for a while if rng decides to screw with you.

    Wiz/Shuri Sometimes Wiz/Bard Phoenix

    Solo Stuff

    The post was edited 7 times, last by Zessen ().

  • Take Bards skill soloely for example, it doesnt sound so much of a healing that would keep you alive from the bosses you are talking. But ingame, that abilities bard uses with the help of its other abilities seem to do something, right? And you can talk about bard because its experienced right? You can't make solid impressions, explanations on something that has never been tried before. You seem to forget that support/heal wiz/sorc or sorc/wiz isnt a replacement, you seem to forget that your stat points dont do anything if not for your armor. [...] Also I bet you dont play your Wiz/Bard as support, anyways. Its probably for personal benefits and Im not judging, play your wiz however you want. Youre only expert on Wizard. So why do you keep looking from a dps Wizards perspective? This build is obviously not about dps, so why are you looking on DPS perspective? If my damage is relatively low to others, why dont i go enhance my healings even more? You know how much heal does those healing abilities, when on a dps build. Bards heals are bad too, if they dont upgrade their heals you know. Also, Bard is a burst healer. Nothing like Wiz/Sorc healings. Yes there is ballad, but ballad is often just used for the buff it gives + the over time heal for squishies. Have you noticed ? When a boss hits, it recovers quickly with Ballad. The monster doesnt wait for your ballad to heal, too. As Reju prayer and mantras healings may be low compared to ballad, they are still healings. You cant compare a bard whos upgrading heal and a wizard who goes dps. Compare them both on the same build. Compare those skills to how effective they are, not by "this is lower than this... then thats bad." This could go the same way with damaging abilities. For example, x does 5 damage, but y does 7 damage. So can you say x is not worth it ? No you cant. If the target has 20 hp then x is just as good.

    Taking in concern with the bolded statements:

    It's actually quite ironic but DPS classes actually can heal equal if not better than Bard mains without putting a single point into Heal tiles or any Heal% gears, because DMG+Crit+CDMG scale SO well with heals that current main bard meta today is actually more DPS or CRIT focused gear rather than Heal/HP gears. This is part of the reason why traditional heal/HP bards were cast out of most relevant meta starting about late 2015 - 2016 in terms of them not being particularly necessary anymore.

    Ballad isn't used for its heals either, it's primarily for the mastery buff and the 3x Notes buff.

    Also, bard sub heals are in no way bad. As Zessen mentioned, Healing Harmony is particularly broken:


    You pretty much can cast this infinitely without cooldown worries, so going DPS Wiz/Bard actually would play as a better support than Wiz/Sorc esepcially if you were to use nothing but Rej.P and sub bard skills, and endgame-wise the things you get debuffed with are either minor enough to ignore or can't be cleansed at all, with very very few exceptions.